Experiences in Borrowing Money

I am sure that every Latter-day Saint within the sound of my voice has had great pleasure in listening to our program here this morning. I am sure that the testimony and the fine teachings of our Presiding Bishop have found echo in the hearts of all of you. I am sure that every Latter-day Saint who believes, according to a declaration of the Prophet Joseph Smith, that the men who wrote the Constitution were inspired of the living God, has rejoiced in Elder Bowen's remarks here this morning, and that the things he has said have found an echo in the hearts of all of you. ¶

Experiences in Borrowing Money

Speaking of this song that we have just sung, some of the words of which are, "On the necks of our foes we shall tread," etc., I had the pleasure of singing it while coming down from Pine Crest (Emigration ¶

Canyon) in an automobile, to a dear friend of mine who is in the banking business, Mr. Fred W. Shibley. Mr. Shibley came to Utah to represent the banks of New York, Chicago, San Francisco and other places, that had lent $12,535,000 to the Utah-Idaho Sugar Company. ¶

When these loans were negotiated sugar was selling for $17.00 a bag of 100 pounds. When the beets were turned into sugar, sugar was selling at $5.00 a bag. We paid $12.00 a ton for the beets and we expected to make four or five million dollars, but we had a loss of more than $5,800,000. We expected to have all our debts paid but we found ourselves in debt $7,535,000, and we needed some more for our next season's crop of beets. We had a practical illustration of Victor Hugo's remarks that "Gratitude is a lively sense of favors to come." Our farmers received over $5,000,000 more than their beets were worth, but the following year nearly all of our factories had to lie idle because the price of beets was not high enough. ¶

I went East to get a renewal of $7,000,000 of obligations with the banks, and in addition to borrow $2,800,000, instead of $12,000,000 as the year before. I had difficulty in getting the company notes ; but finally the bankers agreed to do so, and we were very grateful. They positively refused to lend us a dollar, however, in order to purchase preferred stock. I offered them local collateral and they asked for something that would sell on the New York Stock Exchange. I told them that I did not have any stocks or bonds that would sell on the New York Stock Exchange. One of the great bankers said, "Give us some Union Pacific preferred stocks or bonds." ¶

I said: "You must have been listening to Lulu Shepherd, perhaps the greatest female liar that ever drew the breath of life. She announced that I as President of the Mormon Church had over $100,000,000 in Union Pacific and other railroad preferred stocks and bonds." ¶

I had only one certificate of five shares of the common stock of the Union Pacific, and that was in my name. I had it transferred from President Joseph F. Smith back to the Church, and then I had it transferred to myself, hoping to be elected a director, but "another Pharaoh arose that did not know Joseph," and I did not get the job. {Laughter) A year later, however, somehow or other they got acquainted with "Joseph," and then I got the job. ¶

Incidents in Regard to "O Ye Mountains High"

I took Mr. Shibley to one of our scenic wonders — Brighton — and seeing there in her mother's cottage, next door, the good wife of the man who has been talking to us today (Albert E. Bowen), I suggested that we go over to their cottage and hear somebody sing who knew how to sing. We did so, and I said, "Now, Emma Lou, I sang the song, 'O Ye Mountains High,' for Mr. Shibley, and I would really like to have him hear someone sing it who knows how to sing." She sat down at the piano, and turned around and said, "Of course, President Grant, you do not want me to sing all four verses." ¶

I said, "I have already trod 'on the necks of our foes 'and made the 'Gentiles bow beneath our rod,' give him all four. {Laughter.) ¶

After she had finished singing, I said : "Mr. Shibley, it must have shocked you for me, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claiming that Jesus Christ himself organized it, claiming that God introduced Jesus Christ to the boy prophet, and believing in the teachings of the Savior that we should turn the other cheek and love our enemies — it must have been a great shock to you to hear me singing that we should 'tread on the necks of our foes,' and that 'the Gentiles should bow beneath our rod;' so, I have arranged with the author, Charles W. Penrose, who is now in his 89th year and is as lively and wide awake and as fine a preacher as anyone in the whole Church, that after he passes away we will quit treading on the necks of our foes." ¶

Our old song books, however, have not been changed, but we are now singing, "Without fear of our foes we shall tread." ¶

Mr. Shibley said : "Don't you do it ; I am a student of the Bible, although agnostic, and that is a Bible figurative expression. You do not expect to step on the necks of your foes, but you do expect your foes to bow the neck to the rod of righteousness. Leave it alone, it is only once in a lifetime that a man gives off as inspirational a song as that." ¶

I said: "I have already pledged myself to change it after Brother Penrose dies." ¶

But lo, and behold, after hearing this compliment by a non-member of the Church I am, when singing it personally, going to make them bow to the rod of righteousness, even though it has been changed in the book. ¶

It is only fair to all of you to know that Charles W. Penrose spent ten long years of his life preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in his native land, England, without purse or scrip, and then he came to the valleys of the mountains ; but before coming here he wrote this beautiful, inspired hymn, without having seen our country. We feel that he was not only inspired as a poet, but he was inspired to describe our great and wonderful country. ¶

There are two spirits striving with all men — one telling them what to do that is right, and one telling them what to do that will please themselves, that will gratify their own pride and ambition. If we live as we ought to live we will always follow that spirit that teaches us to do that which is right. ¶

Repentance Means Forsaking of Sin

I have heard many, since my talk here six months ago, say that tithing is a free-will offering and that Heber Grant is laying down a law. Tithing is a law of God and not Heber Grant's law. It is God who said that the people were robbing him — those who did not pay their tithing — not I I can forgive any man almost any great sin if he repents, and "By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins — behold, he will confess them and forsake them." It does not do me individually any good or any harm, no matter how a man lives, but I know as I know that I live that every man who serves God with full purpose of heart is reaping a remarkable and wonderful reward. "Men are that they might have joy," as recorded in the Book of Mormon, and there are no people on the face of the earth that have more real joy, more contentment, more peace of mind, more true happiness, than those who have a knowledge that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the Redeemer of mankind, our Savior, and who are living the laws that he has taught us. It brings a peace, a joy, and a satisfaction into the heart that money can not buy and that nothing else can buy. ¶

I have had men all over this country, during my long life, say to me : "Mr. Grant, your teachings are in harmony with the Bible, but I can not accept your teachings that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God." ¶

Speaking of our principles being in harmony with the Bible, when I reached Chicago, going East with Mr. Shibley, I handed him a couple of tracts to read. One of them was entitled, "Joseph Smith Tells His Own Story." ¶

By the way, Mr. Shibley made a very remarkable and wonderfully favorable report regarding our company, and recommended to the bankers that they lend us the money we wanted with which to buy preferred stock, in order to get a renewal of the $7,000,000 we owed them, but they would not do so. However, later, when Brother Smoot got us $10,000,000 from Uncle Sam they concluded to let us have the more than two million dollars with which to pay for the preferred stock. They were a good deal like the fellow who went to the bank to get his money; — there was a run on the bank — and they offered it to him. He said : "What ! Have you got it? If you have it, I do not want it; if you don't have it I want it awfully bad." ¶

An Agnostic's Opinion of Joseph Smith's Story

After reading the tract, "Joseph Smith Tells His Own Story," Mr. Shibley said to my son-in-law, Robert L. Judd (who had lunch with him) : "Do you know, that story of Joseph Smith's is true. No liar ever wrote such a story. Liars do not go into details. By every rule of my life to discover the truth this story is true. No liar would ever think of such a thing as saying that the Angel Moroni, who appeared to Joseph Smith and who afterwards gave him the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated, had on a loose robe, and that it was open, and that he could see his bosom." ¶

And he pounded the table, so my son-in-law told me, when he said it. "No liar would ever think of saying that the angel's feet did not quite touch the floor and that the robe came to his ankles. Liars learn a story off by heart and stick to it, and they never go into details." ¶

When he was here he went back into the records of the Sugar Company for twenty years. I wondered "What on earth is he going back so far for?" and when I heard of this remark I knew he was looking for something crooked and he did not find it, and that is why he made such an optimistic report, in my judgment. ¶

Arguments in Tract Unanswerable

The other tract that I gave him was, "My Reasons for Joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Leaving the Church of England." When I had lunch with Mr. Shibley the next day he said : ¶

"Mr Grant, I am a student of the Bible, although an agnostic, but if I actually believed the Bible I would be almost compelled to join your Church. I say to you that no believer in the Bible can gainsay these arguments. That tract by your religious friend is unanswerable, but do you know, I have written books myself and I think I could write a better reason for leaving the Church of England and joining your Church than he wrote? ¶

I said : "Mr. Shibley, please remember that this man who knew the Bible so well and gave so many scriptural references to sustain our doctrines which you say are unanswerable — please remember that he had reached the age of retiring on a pension of $5,000 a year as a Colonel in the British army, and that he had been known as a God-fearing man, a truly religious man all his life, and please remember that when he joined the Mormon Church he received letters from India and other places in the world asking, Why have you joined these awful Mormons ?" ¶

We all know of the drivings and the persecutions of the Latter-day Saints in New York; of the loss of our temple and being driven from Ohio ; of the order of the Governor of the State of Missouri that we leave the state or we would be annihilated ; that we were driven out of Nauvoo, Illinois, and our temple destroyed by fire ; and that finally we traveled 1500 miles to these valleys. And what was this country at that time? A great sagebrush plain. One of the three women in the Pioneer company remarked : "Worn and weary as I am, I would sooner go another thousand miles than stop in such a desolate place," and one of the others echoed that sentiment. But Brigham Young said: "This is the place, and here we will build an empire and a temple to our God." ¶

Brigham Young's Plans for Empire

If Brigham Young had got all he asked for, for the new State of Deseret, we would have built an empire here. What did he ask for? There was then no California, no Nevada, no Idaho, no New Mexico, no Arizona. He asked for all of Utah, much of Wyoming, nearly all of Colorado, enough of New Mexico to get the San Juan River, every foot of Arizona and Nevada, to the Sierra Nevada Mountains. He established a colony at the foot of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. He sent his pioneers and representatives across the Colorado River and established a colony in what afterwards became the state of Arizona. He asked for fully one-third of California. He asked in plain English for every drop of water that flows into the Hoover Dam. Please remember the name, never forget it. (Laughter.) Every drop of that water would have belonged to the State of Deseret. Los Angeles would have belonged to us. We established a great colony at San Bernardino and we established a colony way up in the northern part of Idaho, but the government of the United States, because of the lies of some run-away judges, sent the army of the United States against our people here and all those outside colonies were abandoned. ¶

I am going to get another chance at you this afternoon and on several other occasions, and I see there are only a few minutes left. ¶

Officers Urged to Keep Commandments

I want to leave with this vast audience my deep appreciation of all that has been said. I endorse it with all my heart, and I renew again everything that I said in the ten or fifteen minutes at the close of our Conference six months ago. I ask every man and woman occupying a place of responsibility whose duty it is to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to live it and to keep the commandments of God, so that their example will teach it ; and if they can not live it we will go on loving them, we will go on putting our arms around them, we will go on praying for them that they may become strong enough to live it. But unless they are able to live it we ask them to please step aside so that those who are living it can teach it. No man can teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ under the inspiration of the living God and with power from on high unless he is living it. He can go on as a member and we will pray for him, no matter how many years it may require, and we will never put a block in his way, because the Gospel is one of love and of forgiveness, but we want true men and women as our officers in the Priesthood and in the Relief Societies. And a man has no right to be in a high council who can not stand up and say that he knows the Gospel is true and that he is living it. ¶

May God help us to live the Gospel, that our light shall shine before those who know not the truth. I know as I know that I live that God lives, that he is my Father, that he hears and answers my prayers. I know that Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of mankind, the Son of the living God, my Elder Brother. I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of the true and the living God, and that he was the instrument in the hands of God of again restoring to the earth the Gospel of Jesus Christ. ¶

May God bless you, one and all, and every honest man and woman that lives upon the face of the earth, is my humble prayer, and I ask it in humility in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. ¶